So, just wondering: D&D (was what's your favourite CRPG?)

[DeadPoolX]

My issue wasn't NWN itself. I just despise D&D.






EDIT: Since this veered WAY off onto it's own topic, I broke it off from the original post. - Tawmis

[Tawmis]

My issue wasn't NWN itself. I just despise D&D.

I am confused as to how you could hate D&D... and yet like so many computer based RPGs?

[DeadPoolX]

My issue wasn't NWN itself. I just despise D&D.

I am confused as to how you could hate D&D... and yet like so many computer based RPGs?

Since when is D&D the only type of computer-based RPG available?

The first RPG I really enjoyed was the original Fallout. That's nothing like D&D.

How about DA:O and ME2? Not like D&D at all.

Hey, Deus Ex was an RPG (a little heavier on the action than most, but the same could be said for the ME series) and what did that have in common with D&D? Nothing I can think of.

Now unless you automatically count any game that has stats in it as part of the D&D world, it's plain to see how someone could like computer-based RPGs and still hate D&D.

[Tawmis]

My issue wasn't NWN itself. I just despise D&D.

I am confused as to how you could hate D&D... and yet like so many computer based RPGs?

Since when is D&D the only type of computer-based RPG available?
The first RPG I really enjoyed was the original Fallout. That's nothing like D&D.
How about DA:O and ME2? Not like D&D at all.

Now unless you automatically count any game that has stats in it as part of the D&D world, it's plain to see how someone could like computer-based RPGs and still hate D&D.

As a matter of fact, I do. Dragon Age to me... is just like D&D (if D&D was to be computerized). You have your characters. You have your stats. You have your chance to hit something based on a skill. Your damage is based on whatever weapon you're using. There's spells, just like D&D. Every time you go up a level, you get more hit points/health, just like D&D. Every time you go up a level, you learn new skills and/or spells, just like D&D. I'd be hard pressed to find some way that Dragon Age is NOT like D&D. As a matter of fact, there's a DRAGON AGE role playing game now, thus, more than ever, making it JUST like D&D.

If the Dragon Age Role Playing Game had come before the game itself - would you not have liked it because it was based on a D&D type role playing game?

That aside, why is it you dislike D&D? Like what makes you hate it so much that you'd dislike NWN just because it's based on it?

[AndreaDraco]

I don't think that DPX is against the role-playing-heavy aspect of D&D, but against the system itself -- as a matter of fact, I don't like D&D either

I very much prefer other system, like DA itself or ME, or The Witcher. Even Drakensang has a better system than D&D. I don't like almost anything that is D20 related.

[DeadPoolX]

As a matter of fact, I do. Dragon Age to me... is just like D&D (if D&D was to be computerized). You have your characters. You have your stats. You have your chance to hit something based on a skill. Your damage is based on whatever weapon you're using. There's spells, just like D&D. Every time you go up a level, you get more hit points/health, just like D&D. Every time you go up a level, you learn new skills and/or spells, just like D&D. I'd be hard pressed to find some way that Dragon Age is NOT like D&D. As a matter of fact, there's a DRAGON AGE role playing game now, thus, more than ever, making it JUST like D&D.

So then Fallout or Deus Ex or Mass Effect are "just like D&D" then?

Look, you're comparing the games on a very, very basic level without taking into account the game world itself. By saying "any game with stats is like D&D" you're making a broad generalization (one that doesn't stick for lots of RPGs), particularly those games that are set in a sci-fi world.

And no, DA isn't "just like D&D." The rules are different, which in of itself, makes the game different, despite having basic similarities on an extremely superficial level.

Do you see any alignments in DA? Do I have to be "Lawful Good" in order to keep my Paladin status? What about memorizing spells as a Mage? Do I have to do that as well?

No, I don't.

Details like those (and many more) make the game different. In fact, they even affect the stats.

To say that a game is "the same as D&D" simply because it has stats is ludicrous. You might as well call Team Fortress 2 an RPG then, since each weapon has different stats that affect game play.

If the Dragon Age Role Playing Game had come before the game itself - would you not have liked it because it was based on a D&D type role playing game?

If a "Dragon Age Role Playing Game" had come out before the game itself, it'd still be different UNLESS it took place in the D&D world, taking D&D details into account, right down to the stats themselves.

That aside, why is it you dislike D&D? Like what makes you hate it so much that you'd dislike NWN just because it's based on it?

The rules are ridiculously restrictive and the information that's required to know what's what is overly complex. Sure, I could learn, but I have more important things to do than take a course in "D&D Studies."

The nice thing about DA (aside from the FACT it isn't "just like D&D") is that it's a new world. You don't have decades of history to deal with. That not only makes it far more accessible, but also playable without dedicating my life to learning a fictional world.

I don't think that DPX is against the role-playing-heavy aspect of D&D, but against the system itself -- as a matter of fact, I don't like D&D either

I very much prefer other system, like DA itself or ME, or The Witcher. Even Drakensang has a better system than D&D. I don't like almost anything that is D20 related.

Exactly.

[AndreaDraco]

My two cents on why D&D isn't a very good role-playing game: because, once you take in the ridiculous amount of information necessary to play, you discover that everything is just combat-related and there isn't a single rule devoted to what should be the core of every RPG: interpretation.

If you look at the World of Darkness system, you see that every rule is there to enhance the player's interpretation, encouraging him or her to go beyond the simple dice results. Not to mention that the system itself - based on traits and adjectives rather than mere numbers - is a lot more malleable. You could almost play it diceless, when combat is not involved, where, on the other hand, D&D is entirely based on dice rolls, even in the social situation where the player interpretation should be more important than making a high result on a D20.

Not that there is anything inherently wrong with using a lot of dice. The Warhammer Fantasy RPG is just the same, but the system is so much more rich (despite being a lot easier), with its Careers rather than Classes, and far less dreary (and incredibly difficult to master). When I roleplay I want to be able to shape my character from head to toe and, with D&D, it's often the class you chose and the alignment you chose that shape your character, rather than the background you wrote for him and the way you like to play him -- and by play, I mean the way he talks, the way he interacts with the other party members, his moral code, which, thanks the Gods of Kobol, is usually a lot more complex and nuanced that the ridiculous semplification D&D tries to pass off as morality. In fact, one of the things I love about Dragon Age - or, better yet, the pen-and-paper RPG in the World of Darkness setting - is how rich and shaded the morality of your character could be.

And yes, I agree with DPX: I simply hate how D&D treats magic and mages, with their massive grimoires to memorize at any given day. The only mage I like in the D&D setting is, for very obvious reasons, Raistlin Majere

[Tawmis]

So then Fallout or Deus Ex or Mass Effect are "just like D&D" then?

Fallout, I don't know, nor Deus Ex. Which is why I didn't include them when I quoted you. Mass Effect, like D&D? D&D typically sticks to swords and sorcery, wizards and dragons... But, with D&D it's pretty vast. It could easily be converted to do a space setting. (And they did, in D&D make several space settings like Star Frontiers, Spelljammer, etc).

Look, you're comparing the games on a very, very basic level without taking into account the game world itself. By saying "any game with stats is like D&D" you're making a broad generalization (one that doesn't stick for lots of RPGs), particularly those games that are set in a sci-fi world.

That's because, at it's core, every RPG game, to me is based off the notion of D&D.

And no, DA isn't "just like D&D." The rules are different, which in of itself, makes the game different, despite having basic similarities on an extremely superficial level.

LOLz. Um... you do realize there's been SEVERAL different versions of D&D, right? And I mean D&D - Dungeons & Dragons - not just any RPG. But D&D itself has gone through several different rule changes. Do you know the structure of how Dragon Age determines whether you hit or miss an enemy? Unless you have hacked the code, I sincerely doubt it.

So - which RULES of D&D is it that you don't like so much? I am curious... Because... you seem to assume D&D has only ever had one set of rules?

Do you see any alignments in DA? Do I have to be "Lawful Good" in order to keep my Paladin status? What about memorizing spells as a Mage? Do I have to do that as well? No, I don't. Details like those (and many more) make the game different. In fact, they even affect the stats.

How many different DM's (Dungeon Masters) have you ever played with in terms of playing Dungeons & Dragons? Have they all made it so you have to memorize spells? For example, when I DM, it's one of the restrictions I remove from my game. Mages don't need to memorize spells. And Clerics call upon their chosen deity to cast their spells. And yet, I am still playing D&D when I DM.

As for being Lawful Good and a Paladin... that doesn't exist in Dragon Age. So you can't determine whether or not you'd have to be Lawful Good to be a Paladin. But then, some DM's remove restrictions and classes as well. For example, I hate Psionics in D&D, so I have removed any chance of being a Psionic in my games, and there's no creatures that even use Psionics. I have modified them to use spells, rather than Psionics.

If the Dragon Age Role Playing Game had come before the game itself - would you not have liked it because it was based on a D&D type role playing game?

If a "Dragon Age Role Playing Game" had come out before the game itself, it'd still be different UNLESS it took place in the D&D world, taking D&D details into account, right down to the stats themselves.

What exactly is a "D&D world?"

That aside, why is it you dislike D&D? Like what makes you hate it so much that you'd dislike NWN just because it's based on it?

The rules are ridiculously restrictive and the information that's required to know what's what is overly complex. Sure, I could learn, but I have more important things to do than take a course in "D&D Studies."

Too complex? Are we talking the pen & paper version of D&D? Because if we are... and you think they're complex... I might have to laugh. I would consider you far more intelligent than myself (and I am not kidding here). And I know D&D rules. Especially 2nd Edition D&D rules - I can almost quote how they work. It's VERY simple. And restrictive? 3rd Edition opened it up even more (when they switched to the "Open D20" system that they invited - and removed the most complex part of 2nd Edition (THAC0) - and thus making it easier. When we played D&D (back when we did) the wives of the group also played (we were all playing with 2nd Edition). When 3rd Edition came out and we decided to switch - the women loved it because it was INFINITELY easier to learn, and customize everything about your character. (We men, we were old mules and preferred 2nd Edition because we had all been playing it for MANY years). I have not touched 4th Edition (since I no longer hang out with anyone who plays) - but supposedly it's even EASIER now, the rules of memorizing spells are out the window, and everything's "much faster pace" because they based it off the ideas of MMOs. So that seems to nullify your hatred of the game being too restrictive, having to memorize spells, and being too complex, no? The only thing you'd need to do is learn to play. And if you're a player, then there's virtually NOTHING you need to know, other than rolling up a character, since the DM will do everything else. And since you have clearly played several CRPGs, I am pretty sure you got the basic idea of how rolling up a character works (pick a name, race, roll some stats like Strength, Intelligence, Wisdom, buy some equipment and armor and wait for the DM to tell you what comes next!)

The nice thing about DA (aside from the FACT it isn't "just like D&D") is that it's a new world. You don't have decades of history to deal with. That not only makes it far more accessible, but also playable without dedicating my life to learning a fictional world.

But... D&D ... has only two existing worlds, really. There's Greyhawk which very few people play in. (It's considered the original D&D world). And then there's Forgotten Realms which a few people play in (thanks to the popularity that R.A. Salvatore brought into it by writing a novel based on it, and introducing "Drizz't Du'Urben" or however you spell the name of that Dark Elf). There's other worlds out there, like Dragonlance and a few others... But I'd wager that any D&D game you played in, with players, would be a brand new, unique world that the DM themselves has created.

I don't think that DPX is against the role-playing-heavy aspect of D&D, but against the system itself -- as a matter of fact, I don't like D&D either I very much prefer other system, like DA itself or ME, or The Witcher. Even Drakensang has a better system than D&D. I don't like almost anything that is D20 related.

Exactly.

Then ye have both played with some $#!++y Dungeon Masters. Just sayin'.
The D&D system, almost from the first page, says, "These are not rules set in stone; these are suggestions, to be modified, as needed, to begin your gaming experience."

As I said, above... I made a number of adjustments in my D&D game... and that's been running (online) with 90% of the same players, since 1999.

And when I have DM'ed face to face, I am usually DMing my own, custom world, with custom rules. I have on occasion run a game in Dragonlance - but that's usually because I didn't have the things I needed (my notes or something) from my own world.

[Tawmis]

My two cents on why D&D isn't a very good role-playing game: because, once you take in the ridiculous amount of information necessary to play, you discover that everything is just combat-related and there isn't a single rule devoted to what should be the core of every RPG: interpretation.

If you're discovering everything is combat related, then you have had experiences with poor DM's who have no sense in how to tell a story, and thus surrender to the idea of throwing monster A, B, and C at you.

And that's very unfortunate.

Yes, combat is usually a part of D&D... But look at Dragon Age. You spend a good amount of time talking to people - yes. But I would say that over 70% of the game is combat vs actual RP. You're either battling Darkspawn, Demons, Brigands on the road, Wolves.... The actual RP of Dragon Age is about 20, maybe 30% of the game. The rest - combat.

A solid DM who knows what they're doing populates a town and makes some key NPCs with some sort of fleshed out background, that will give you a quest of some kind (that will, yes, involve combat typically - like, "My wife's wedding ring was taken from me when brigands ambushed me on the road! I saw the brigands riding to the cave in Stoneblack Mountain." So sure - you head for the caves, maybe fight a few kobolds who guard it, find the brigands, fight them, and get the ring and return it). It's just like something from Dragon Age. The key is having solid, fun, and interesting quests and NPCs so that the characters have something to RP with. Rather than blank_slate_npc01, "I need this item. Go get it for me."

When I roleplay I want to be able to shape my character from head to toe and, with D&D, it's often the class you chose and the alignment you chose that shape your character, rather than the background you wrote for him and the way you like to play him -- and by play, I mean the way he talks, the way he interacts with the other party members, his moral code, which, thanks the Gods of Kobol, is usually a lot more complex and nuanced that the ridiculous semplification D&D tries to pass off as morality. In fact, one of the things I love about Dragon Age - or, better yet, the pen-and-paper RPG in the World of Darkness setting - is how rich and shaded the morality of your character could be.

I don't get how you think that everything's based so much on class and alignment? Again, perhaps you have had some crappy experiences with DM's who stick too much by the rules that are written vs having some imagination (which is NEEDED for a DM) that allow you to expand as much as you wanted. I have, yes, had bad experiences with D&D - but more often than not, it's been the DM's fault (or a player who is unruly or a rule quoter). But over all, I guess I have been fortunate enough to play with DM's who really let you explore not only the world, but your character. And that's pretty much how I DM as well. I am notoriously known, in my online game, on taking whatever a player writes for his character background and weaving it somewhere (if not several times, if I can) - into the game. I am also constantly asking players, how I can improve as a DM. Sometimes, they have found some kind of class expansion online and asked if they could import it and use it for their character - and if it doesn't unbalance the game, I do it. I am never set in stone as a DM. You can't be.

And yes, I agree with DPX: I simply hate how D&D treats magic and mages, with their massive grimoires to memorize at any given day. The only mage I like in the D&D setting is, for very obvious reasons, Raistlin Majere

Again, this is something I (and several others I have played with) have done away with.

You like Raistlin? Join the three hundred billion others who do. (As a side note... Dragonlance is based off D&D... and Raistlin was restricted to memorizing spells... and yet you liked his character... did you know all of the original Dragonlance Chronicles is based off a D&D game that they actually did? Spell memorization... character limitation and all... Even Raistlin's rasping voice was something the player himself did that was all imported into the story...)

[DeadPoolX]

You're assuming, for some ridiculous reason, that I've played the pen-and-paper version of D&D.

Why?

I never said I've ever played with LIVE people in a PnP environment. All I've ever seen -- and played -- were the computer-based versions. That's it. So the "DM" in this case was the computer itself.

There's a reason I play CRPGs and not PnP ones: I DON'T WANT TO PLAY WITH LIVE PEOPLE!

Seems simple, doesn't it?

Fallout, I don't know, nor Deus Ex. Which is why I didn't include them when I quoted you. Mass Effect, like D&D? D&D typically sticks to swords and sorcery, wizards and dragons... But, with D&D it's pretty vast. It could easily be converted to do a space setting. (And they did, in D&D make several space settings like Star Frontiers, Spelljammer, etc).

But according to you, any game with stats is "just like D&D." That means EVERY SINGLE GAME THAT HAS STATS. There's no clause excluding sci-fi or any game that uses a different game play system or one that isn't based in a fantasy setting.

That's because, at it's core, every RPG game, to me is based off the notion of D&D.

So... every RPG is, at it's core, based off D&D? What happened to D&D and "swords and sorcery?"

Make up your mind. Either it's all based off D&D (which includes non-fantasy settings and games that don't even use the D&D ruleset) or it isn't.

What exactly is a "D&D world?"

Any world or setting within D&D itself. I'm surprised I even have to explain this to you.

I would consider you far more intelligent than myself (and I am not kidding here).

At least we agree on something.

Tawmis, you seem unable to understand that I don't like D&D. I've already entertained your questioning far longer than I should have, considering I am under NO obligation to "prove" anything to you.

I don't like the game. Now respect that decision and get the f*ck of my case.

[Tawmis]

You're assuming, for some ridiculous reason, that I've played the pen-and-paper version of D&D.
Why?
I never said I've ever played with LIVE people in a PnP environment. All I've ever seen -- and played -- were the computer-based versions. That's it. So the "DM" in this case was the computer itself.
There's a reason I play CRPGs and not PnP ones: I DON'T WANT TO PLAY WITH LIVE PEOPLE!
Seems simple, doesn't it?

Well, when you say you hate D&D... Yes. I assume you've at least PLAYED D&D.
So... your interaction with D&D - is... Neverwinter Nights? Is there other CRPGs you have played that are based off D&D?

Fallout, I don't know, nor Deus Ex. Which is why I didn't include them when I quoted you. Mass Effect, like D&D? D&D typically sticks to swords and sorcery, wizards and dragons... But, with D&D it's pretty vast. It could easily be converted to do a space setting. (And they did, in D&D make several space settings like Star Frontiers, Spelljammer, etc).

But according to you, any game with stats is "just like D&D." That means EVERY SINGLE GAME THAT HAS STATS. There's no clause excluding sci-fi or any game that uses a different game play system or one that isn't based in a fantasy setting.

Fair enough. But then - if you have never played the Pen & Paper version of D&D - how is it you can make such a general assumption that you HATE D&D? If all you have ever played is games BASED off of D&D and not D&D itself?

It'd be like if someone saw the STAR WARS special "The Ewok Adventure" (with the two kids and the Ewoks) and just said, "I hate Star Wars. Everything about it. Because of the Ewok Adventure Special."

They'd be missing a VERY vast portion of STAR WARS itself, wouldn't you say?

What exactly is a "D&D world?"

Any world or setting within D&D itself. I'm surprised I even have to explain this to you.

So... Forgotten Realms, essentially, as all I have ever heard of you ever playing that'd "D&D" related is "Neverwinter Nights"...?

Tawmis, you seem unable to understand that I don't like D&D. I've already entertained your questioning far longer than I should have, considering I am under NO obligation to "prove" anything to you.

I am trying to understand how you can make a general statement of hating D&D if all you have experienced of it is a CRPG, which is BASED off D&D and not D&D itself.

I don't like the game. Now respect that decision and get the f*ck of my case.

Well it's good to see we could have a civil conversation here.

[DeadPoolX]

A civil conversation doesn't include one person hammering away at another. In contrast, a civil conversation DOES include agreeing to disagree.

You've failed on all counts.

So this thread lost any "civil conversation" long ago.

[AndreaDraco]

You like Raistlin? Join the three hundred billion others who do. (As a side note... Dragonlance is based off D&D... and Raistlin was restricted to memorizing spells... and yet you liked his character... did you know all of the original Dragonlance Chronicles is based off a D&D game that they actually did? Spell memorization... character limitation and all... Even Raistlin's rasping voice was something the player himself did that was all imported into the story...)

Yes, I know that And I know that Dragonlance is a D&D setting. But when I was younger I liked the books so much that I can't help but like Raistlin. And, don't mistake me, I know that with a good DM D&D can be extremely entertaining and as deep as the other games I mentioned, it's just that the rules don't seem to go in that direction. The rules seem to exist to hinder the player, not helping in shaping the kind of character he wants.

Are you familiar with Vampire: The Masquerade? That's my favorite pen-and-paper RPG and it probably sets the bar for everything else. I like that style of play, heavy on interpretation and moral choice and light on rules and dice, dark, gloomy, introspective, philosophical almost. I absolutely love V:tM Bloodlines, if you haven't tried it, is a good rendition and it's also available on GOG!

@ DPX: rudeness aside, which was totally uncalled for (so, please, let's try and remain civil), why don't you want to play with live people? Admittedly I'm an avid pen-and-paper RPG fan, but I find that the experience is usually very rich and stimulating. And LARPs sometimes are even better!

[DeadPoolX]

Andrea, I wasn't rude at all.

Tawmis can't (or won't) understand that I dislike D&D.

He won't leave it alone. He keeps hammering away at me. I find that rude and offensive and quite frankly, I'm disgusted with this entire scenario.

I don't like D&D. I've given my reasons and all I get is an argument back.

This conversation is done.

[AndreaDraco]

I think Tawmis is simply defending a game he likes and trying to understand both our reasons for disliking D&D. This conversation has a nice potential and, even if we disagree, we're simply trying to express our opinion. I don't think that Tawmis was hammering you, really, and I'd like if we could go on with the discussion