Oblivion.

[Tawmis]

I didn't want to side track the STAR TREK MMO thread - so pardon me while I copy and paste a segment from that over here -

It's like an FPS. You press a fire button and he attacks once wherever you're currently aiming. He doesn't continue to attack until the enemy is dead (automatic).

OoOoooOoooO. So then it's not like typical MMOs.

Yeah, it sounds a lot like Oblivion or Fallout 3 in the sense that it's an FPS based on stats. So your "twitch" skills obviously matter, but to what extent is dependent on your character's statistics.

... to discuss OBLIVION.

So I am probably going to be lynched for this - and I undoubtedly, may even stand alone with this - but I disliked OBLIVION.

Now gasp. And stare at me like my third eye is showing again.

But it's true.

The game, without a doubt, is beautiful.

Very open. Very amazing.

HOWEVER...

So as you probably know - you start in the prison, follow the king and his people around, get the basics of melee combat - which are pretty easy to win during this time because the King's guards help with the fight. Then you get out, swim across a massive lake, and land on shore. (Now I suppose it depends on WHERE you go) - but I'd wager that most people immediately encountered those bandits sitting by the rocks.

So I tried to use the bow and arrow and pick one off as quickly and quietly as I could... But I could never master the bow and arrow. I was always shooting too far. Or not far enough. Which of course, alerts them both to your presence, and you suddenly find yourself being flanked and attacked by two guys. Not so easy when there's no others to help you.

After a long time of doing this over and over (as I died quite frequently during this segment) - I managed to kill both guys. Wandering around, I found a town, got some quests, and walked around - and felt more... LOST... than anything. I think because the game is SO open - I felt overwhelmed. Wasn't sure where to go. And when I found something to a quest, I'd usually forget who the hell needed these three silver beads of Antinqiun (just made it up, not real).

I STRONGLY dislike the bow & arrow thing in Oblivion. I don't mind if it tells me I am too far away, or something. But when I fire the bow at an enemy - I'd rather it simply do the roll to hit and miss. Not try to also have ME judge if I am pulling the bow string too tight or not and whether or not I am going to over shoot or not.

The openess of the game - I can appreciate. Just not my style. I like open games, but I like to feel like there's some sense of "most of what you need for the quests you get in this area, will be around here" - I don't want to get a quest in one town, where a guy is asking me for carrots, so I need to walk for 30 minutes to another town to get the guy carrots, and then walk back and try to remember where the hell he was.

[DeadPoolX]

I've never played Oblivion, but I did play Morrowind and if the two are alike at all (and I've heard they are), I feel the same way you do, Tawmis. I like nonlinear games that allow the player plenty of freedom to choose, but Morrowind (and even Fallout 3) seemed too open-ended. I got lost after a while without knowing what to do.

Don't get me wrong, the ability to do just about whatever I wanted in both games was very cool. But I do like SOME direction.

I've also heard that in Oblivion the enemies level up alongside you. In other words, you could find high-level monsters in "newbie" areas if you go back to them at a higher level. I think that's dumb. Sure, you shouldn't be able to slaughter everything in your path, but it's weird to have enemies constantly level with you. If you go back to an earlier part in the game, the bad guys should be a lower-level just like they were before (only fighting them would yield little-to-no rewards).

Probably my biggest problem with Morrowind (and to a much lesser extent Fallout 3) is that using melee weapons in a first-person view can be incredibly difficult. Yes, I know other games have done this, but in Morrowind and Oblivion there are no guns.

[AndreaDraco]

I like Oblivion. A lot. And Morrowind too.

When I install a Bethesda game, I don't expect a gripping story, top-notch writing, complex and intriguing characters, interesting and detailed dialogues and compelling moral choices. These are the things I expect from a BioWare game, not from Bethesda.

It's true: you're not given any direction on what to do. So I simply do nothing. I follow the main quest for a while, then wander off to a landmark that caught my attention or to a cave entrance that looked promising. I visit villages and towns without purpose and enjoy discovering lost ruins and abandoned temples, and if I stumble across a quest, I don't fret: when I'll be up to it, I'll look the information in the journal and trace my way back using the compass.

The main quests are usually pretty dull, and the side-quests are even more uninspired, but I don't care, as long as I'm free to explore. While I certainly prefer BioWare's approach to roleplaying, from time to time Bethesda's adventures appease my exploration's appetite, just for the sake of the beautiful visuals and the thrill of discovery.

[Tawmis]

Well I found it difficult to explore when I walked around since I couldn't master the bow and arrow - which, when you're walking around and suddenly come across five snarling wolves - whether or not they're my level or not (as Oblivion does) - they out number me.

And arrow shot to pick off a few to even the odds would be nice. But that bow and arrow was a nightmare. I could save every 5 minutes of exploring but doing that yanks me out of exploring the game and losing myself in the game. Which is what I found I had to do.

[MusicallyInspired]

I don't know how the bow and arrow doesn't work well for you. I LOVE the combat system in Oblivion. The BEST combat system I've ever seen. Unlike Morrowind (which fires arrows straight and does a dice roll as to whether you've hit him or not), the targeting and firing system is way more accurate and life like. Ever since I first started Oblivion I've been a master with the bow and arrow. Also, when you sneak and get a kill you'll do triple the damage and if you do it right nobody will notice your kill if they're far enough away.

When you fire a bow and arrow there are two basic modes. Firing it immediately which does barely any damage and flops down a short distance in front of you. What you need to do is hold it down until the movement animation stops and then fire. This will shoot the arrow the farthest it can go and do maximum damage. For targets that are far away you have to aim a little above their heads because arrows follow the realistic arch movement and will go too low if you aim directly at their head or torso. Firing a little higher (the farther away they are the higher above you aim) will ensure a direct hit in their head/torso/whatever you're going for. But it's not that technical for how long you hold the arrow or not. It's basically fire immediately and do no damage or hold the button down until the animation stops and then fire for maximum damage and distance. Always hold it down all the way when firing your bow and arrow. ALWAYS. This is also true for Morrowind. There's no point in holding it for different "tensions" as you're just sacrificing distance and damage given. Just hold it down and fire. WHILE SNEAKING. It has nothing to do with tension or anything. It sounds like you have trouble aiming more than anything. And just to clear things up, there is no "homing" attack in Oblivion (or Morrowind for that matter). In Morrowind the arrows go straight but in Oblivion you have to compensate for the "arch" that arrows fly in by aiming up a bit if people are too far away. It's not that hard to get the hang of. Also, run around. Don't stay in one spot. Also, marskman won't do much for you if you haven't chosen it as a major skill. But again it sounds like you're just not aiming properly. I don't understand how you can "shoot too far" for instance. That's impossible unless you're just clean missing your targets. Take the time to aim properly, take into account the arch of the flight of an arrow based on your distance to your target, and always hold the arrow down until the animation stops for maximum damage and distance. There's no real reason to "shoot not far enough." No message will come up telling you you missed your target because it's based on your ability to aim. It's not automated. You can also recover your arrows if you miss.

As far as the confusion on who you're supposed to give the silver goblets to, you have a journal. Use it. It's much better than in Morrowind. You have three categories: Current Quest, Active Quests, and Completed Quests. Current quests shows you all the steps you've made in a current quest. Active Quests shows all the unfinished activated quests. Clicking on one of these will alter the Current Quest screen. And Completed quests shows what you've completed. So you can just go reread your quest log to see what you're supposed to do next. On top of this you have quest markers on your map and compass to tell you where your next goal is depending on which active quest is selected. So you'll never get lost. Again, much better than in Morrowind.

The only thing that's really debatable is the monsters leveling up thing. In Morrowind everything is static. Oblivion everything levels with you (but not the monsters themselves, new monsters, rather, take their place) and if you raid a dungeon or cave everything respawns after 3 days so there aren't as many big rewards for going through a raid.

I've really gotta disagree with you on the storytelling, though. Both Morrowind and Oblivion have THE BEST stories I've ever experienced in a video game. This might be stifled a bit by people who find the voice acting jarring and not done well (where, for the most part it really isn't), but for me it doesn't bother me. The main quest, Thieves' Guild and Dark Brotherhood quests in particular are really well done. I've never played a bioware game (except for the beginning of KOTOR, but I'm not going to be playing any more than that because I can't stand automatic combat).

Plus there are tons and tons of books of fiction written in the game that are really good reads as well, if you have the patience to sit and read them.

Basically I love almost everything about Oblivion. It has its flaws as all games do in some way, but you can't tell me the stories are mediocre and boring because I've never experienced a more captivating storyline(s) in a video game ever. I've just recently beaten the main questline and the Knights of Nine expansion in Oblivion and have just moved on to The Shivering Isles expansion.

Bottom line. Beautiful game. Brilliant writers. But that's me.

[AndreaDraco]

Well, if you can try Jade Empire, which is, to my recollection, the only BioWare game without automatic combat resolution, you will see the differences. Bethesda's stories are really shallow and the characters that inhabit Oblivion's world are little more than two-dimensional charicatures in comparison to BioWare's RPGs. And the writing, at least for my taste, is much, much better in those, more fluent and epic, a real pleasure to experience.

With this being said, I still can't wait for an Elder Scrolls V

[DeadPoolX]

Although I've stopped playing it for a while, Fallout 3 does a great job in mixing both real-time and turn-based combat. You can fight just as you would in a normal FPS or you can use the VATS system, which stops time and allows you to target different areas of an enemy's body. How much damage you do and your overall accuracy depends on your skills and stats.

The story in F3 is a good one while still allowing for a ton of flexibility and exploration. Is F3's story as good as a BioWare game? I suppose that depends how you like your stories told and what interests you. I usually find BioWare's games to have more in-depth story lines than anything Bethesda has produced. That doesn't mean Bethesda's games are bad, they simply emphasize a different aspect of story telling.

I'll get back to F3 one of these days. Right now I'm too busy playing TF2 (with Maia), Batman: Arkham Asylum and messing around with Garry's Mod.

[MusicallyInspired]

I still want to grab Fallout 3. I've heard from many Bethesda fans that TES stories in general are better than Fallout 3's. But I have to play it myself. Everyone keeps saying how great it is and how much it improved on Oblivion.

[Tawmis]

I don't know how the bow and arrow doesn't work well for you.

I was pretty sure I was clear about that in my original post.

Ever since I first started Oblivion I've been a master with the bow and arrow.

Some people got it, some people don't, apparently. I am definitely a don't.
And that's not to say I tried it once or twice.
I tried it. A lot. Probably well over 50 times. (Not in that one area alone, I mean through out the game). And I find it pointless. If I can't run up and melee them, then I am as good as dead. Although I did take up one of the magic classes/races and did much better with distance attacks.

When you fire a bow and arrow there are two basic modes. Firing it immediately which does barely any damage and flops down a short distance in front of you. What you need to do is hold it down until the movement animation stops and then fire. This will shoot the arrow the farthest it can go and do maximum damage.

I know this. I have used a real bow and arrow before.

It sounds like you have trouble aiming more than anything.

Indeed. As I said, either seems to fall short or fly over. I mean, I hit from time to time - make no mistake. I don't ALWAYS miss when I played. But a fair share of the times, even if I was aiming for the middle of the guy's chest, I'd tend to miss. And I have played FPS games from way back - like Heretic and such, which has a similar (though far more primitive, naturally) working mechanic of firing a bow.

It's not that hard to get the hang of.

I'd beg to differ.

Also, run around. Don't stay in one spot. Also, marskman won't do much for you if you haven't chosen it as a major skill. But again it sounds like you're just not aiming properly. I don't understand how you can "shoot too far" for instance. That's impossible unless you're just clean missing your targets.

Oh, if I had the time, desire and energy to reinstall the game - I'd be happy to show you by doing some video capture.

You can also recover your arrows if you miss.

Yes. The times I survived, I noticed this.

As far as the confusion on who you're supposed to give the silver goblets to, you have a journal. Use it.

Brilliant idea. Using it. Didn't help.

I've really gotta disagree with you on the storytelling, though. Both Morrowind and Oblivion have THE BEST stories I've ever experienced in a video game.

I can't comment too much on the story telling other than to say it didn't capture me long enough for me to keep it installed for more than about two weeks.

I've never played a bioware game

That would explain why you have the misguided opinion that Oblivion has some of the best story telling!

[MusicallyInspired]

We both must be misguided then.

[Tawmis]

We both must be misguided then.

Heh. Ya know I was just being silly, right?

At any rate - I really tried Oblivion. And I am pretty sure, perhaps it is me. I mean the game sold exceptionally well and was very well received. Just about everyone I know enjoys the game. (Which is why from the start of the original post, I said I will probably stand alone in this when I said I disliked it). But everyone has their own cup of tea. As it turned out, the game play of Oblivion was not to my liking.

[MusicallyInspired]

Yeah, I know. Perhaps I should have used a smiley myself...oops!

Yeah, it's a shame you can't enjoy it, though. It's a great game. But in this case maybe knowing is enough.

[Tawmis]

I just noticed your XBL tag has Oblivion as recently be played too.