SHP Forums

Maxor127 wrote:I didn't have a problem with how they did Dragon Age Origins. From what I remember, it's no different than how they handled any previous Bioware game except Mass Effect. I've never had a problem with silent protagonists, but there have been several times where voiced protagonists annoyed me. In Origins, I felt much more involved in the story than I did in Dragon Age 2. And I think it's a waste of time to hear a protagonist repeat what I want them to say. I've played games all my life, and I never once thought how I wish I could hear my character carry on a conversation with someone and make me feel like an observer rather than a participant.

But you're always an observer. Even with a silent protagonist, you're still just choosing pre-selected options to say to NPCs. You can't decide to do something that's outside what's been programmed into the game.

That's part of my issue with the whole debate. There's no more freedom with a silent protagonist than there is a voiced one. You can only do and say what the writers have envisioned. The main difference is in one you don't get to hear your character speak (while everyone else does, which makes your mute character seem out of place) and in the other he has a voice.

DeadPoolX wrote:But you're always an observer. Even with a silent protagonist, you're still just choosing pre-selected options to say to NPCs. You can't decide to do something that's outside what's been programmed into the game.

This is very true, even with the old parser games. The "freedom" of the parser that the fans of the parser extol was just an illusion. If you tried to say or do something that the programmer did not think of, all you got is some generic catchall phrase like "You can't do that", "You are not close enough" or "You will not need to say that in this game." The main thing that the parser means is the programmer saying "guess what word I am thinking of now." Even with an AI, you can't do something outside of what's been accounted for.

Collector wrote:

DeadPoolX wrote:But you're always an observer. Even with a silent protagonist, you're still just choosing pre-selected options to say to NPCs. You can't decide to do something that's outside what's been programmed into the game.

This is very true, even with the old parser games. The "freedom" of the parser that the fans of the parser extol was just an illusion. If you tried to say or do something that the programmer did not think of, all you got is some generic catchall phrase like "You can't do that", "You are not close enough" or "You will not need to say that in this game." The main thing that the parser means is the programmer saying "guess what word I am thinking of now." Even with an AI, you can't do something outside of what's been accounted for.

You'd be surprised just how many people on the BioWare boards don't understand this concept. They somehow feel that a non-voiced player character gives them more freedom within the game world.

Even in an open-world game like Skyrim, where you can do almost anything, your actions are still allowed or disallowed by the game's programming.

All of our choices, actions and options are simply an illusion granted to us by the game designers. None of this changes based on whether or not the player character can audibly speak.

As I alluded to, this is a similar argument to parser vs point & click. Parser fans insist that P&C is too easy, but in reality, what is harder about the parser is simply the "Guess what word I am thinking of now" game with the developer. The actual difficulty is based on the puzzles, logic and other game design choices of the game.

I think parser does allow more freedom. The first Police Quest is a good example. You had to have knowledge of police procedure and type out the correct phrases, but in the VGA remake, you just click in the right spot with the right icon, and it does the rest. Plus, parser will let you type recognizable things that they don't even bother implementing in the icon interface.

And if you're always an observer even as a silent protagonist, then it's even worse as a voiced one because you have to choose what you want to say, and then watch the characters have a conversation with each other about it instead of speaking as if they're having a conversation with YOU. Bottom line is with a silent protagonist, I get to insert my own personality and voice into them instead of getting stuck with whatever personality and voice the designers decide.

The freedom allowed by silent protagonists is irrelevant. What's relevant is that there's a difference between making a character from scratch and filling in your own voice versus using a premade character. But the freedom is tangible. It's just a matter of what the designers want to sink resources into. I'd be surprised if Dragon Age 2 had more dialog than Dragon Age Origins or even more content in general.

Maxor127 wrote:I think parser does allow more freedom. The first Police Quest is a good example. You had to have knowledge of police procedure and type out the correct phrases, but in the VGA remake, you just click in the right spot with the right icon, and it does the rest.

PQ1 might very well be the one Sierra game where this is true. It had strict police procedures to follow and a such, the parser interface required some knowledge of them.

However, the vast majority of Sierra's games had no recognizable procedures to follow. The KQ 1-4, SQ 1-3, LSL 1-3, and QFG 1-2 were all about simply interacting with the world. It didn't matter if you chose to type "grab apple" or click the hand icon on a visual representation of an apple. You got the same result, only without playing "guess which word the designer was thinking of?"

Maxor127 wrote:Plus, parser will let you type recognizable things that they don't even bother implementing in the icon interface.

True, but usually this had no impact on the game itself. Typing foul language or something completely psychotic into the parser may have been entertaining, but yielded no constructive value as far as overall game play was concerned.

Maxor127 wrote:And if you're always an observer even as a silent protagonist, then it's even worse as a voiced one because you have to choose what you want to say, and then watch the characters have a conversation with each other about it instead of speaking as if they're having a conversation with YOU.

I guess I don't have a problem with this since I grew up on Adventure games, where the character was never truly yours, just someone whose shoes you stepped into. You still controlled them, but there you saw them talking to people. The GK series is a good example of this.

In addition, you still saw (from a third-person viewpoint) your character "talking" to NPCs in DA:O. The main difference is your character stands like and acts like a mime, instead of a person who can have an actual conversation with another individual.

Maxor127 wrote:Bottom line is with a silent protagonist, I get to insert my own personality and voice into them instead of getting stuck with whatever personality and voice the designers decide.

I can understand the voice argument. Not everyone likes the voice actors and actresses BioWare chooses. I didn't like the male Shepard's voice in ME1, but he really improved in ME2 and ME3. Maia didn't initially like the female Hawke's voice, but she got accustomed to it.

Personality, however, is still dictated by the player. The responses you choose frame the character's personality. In fact, this was far more true in DA2 than in any of the ME games.

For instance, if you chose lots of sarcastic and joke-related responses in dialogue, your character would crack jokes and say silly things during combat. If you were serious in dialogue, he'd be serious in combat and so on. In many ways, I find that a lot better than the same canned comments that your character made in DA:O.

Maxor127 wrote:The freedom allowed by silent protagonists is irrelevant. What's relevant is that there's a difference between making a character from scratch and filling in your own voice versus using a premade character.

The only difference is your character has a last name and a voice. The rest revolves around stats, powers, abilities, spells, weapons, etc. All of that is still chosen by the player.

DeadPoolX wrote:The debate between those who like a silent protagonist versus those who prefer a voiced protagonist is huge issue on the BioWare Social Network (BSN), with the two camps evenly divided. It doesn't really matter because BioWare has stated -- numerous times -- that DA3 will be fully voiced, like the ME series and DA2.

Regardless, I'm interested in knowing how you guys feel. Do you have a specific preference? If so, why?

I know where I stand, but I'd like to hear some opinions first.

I would want fully voiced. With the option, as in most games, to turn down specific volumes (including music, sound effects, and voices). So if you don't want voices, and want to hear it all in your head, then mute the voices.

Options is always the best way to go. But it's not the least bit surprising that fans are battling over something like this on the Bioware forums.

I think every post made on the Bioware forums should end with this emoticon:

Maxor127 wrote:I think parser does allow more freedom. The first Police Quest is a good example. You had to have knowledge of police procedure and type out the correct phrases, but in the VGA remake, you just click in the right spot with the right icon, and it does the rest. Plus, parser will let you type recognizable things that they don't even bother implementing in the icon interface.

That isn't more freedom. If anything that is more restrictive. I am not sure how much you can directly compare the remakes with the originals since they were not 1:1 conversions. The differences between the AGI and SCI versions are design choices by the developers and management. Remember that some of the differences with the new version are because of customer feedback, so they were often made easier with fewer dead ends.

Tawmis wrote:I think every post made on the Bioware forums should end with this emoticon:

Tawmis wrote: Options is always the best way to go. But it's not the least bit surprising that fans are battling over something like this on the Bioware forums.

It's just mind-boggling that they continue to debate it like there's still some question as to what BioWare will do.

BioWare has stated (several times) that they are using a fully voiced protagonist, so why continue the argument?

Tawmis wrote: I would want fully voiced. With the option, as in most games, to turn down specific volumes (including music, sound effects, and voices). So if you don't want voices, and want to hear it all in your head, then mute the voices.

Options is always the best way to go. But it's not the least bit surprising that fans are battling over something like this on the Bioware forums.

This is true. If they had an option to turn off the PC voice (and possibly snippets of PC animation, since those tend to be awkward without vocalisations) and just use subtitles for them, that might satisfy more people overall.

Tawmis wrote: I think every post made on the Bioware forums should end with this emoticon:

Just about!

DeadPoolX wrote:

Tawmis wrote: Options is always the best way to go. But it's not the least bit surprising that fans are battling over something like this on the Bioware forums.

It's just mind-boggling that they continue to debate it like there's still some question as to what BioWare will do.
BioWare has stated (several times) that they are using a fully voiced protagonist, so why continue the argument?

Why?

Because Bioware/EA has come out, on bended knee, to appease the loudest group. Which is typically the whiners. So eventually, there will be a patch that will give those that cried, screamed, and threw a fit, loud enough, and long enough, to make Bioware/EA buckle. That's why they continue to "fight the fight."

Maiandra wrote:

Tawmis wrote: I would want fully voiced. With the option, as in most games, to turn down specific volumes (including music, sound effects, and voices). So if you don't want voices, and want to hear it all in your head, then mute the voices. Options is always the best way to go. But it's not the least bit surprising that fans are battling over something like this on the Bioware forums.

This is true. If they had an option to turn off the PC voice (and possibly snippets of PC animation, since those tend to be awkward without vocalisations) and just use subtitles for them, that might satisfy more people overall.

You'd think someone much wiser than me (which is just about everyone) would have come up with this at Bioware/EA.

Maiandra wrote:

Tawmis wrote: I think every post made on the Bioware forums should end with this emoticon:

Just about!

My apologies for my disappointment in the over all "feeling" of the Bioware/EA "social" forums definitely carrying through in my posts!