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AndreaDraco wrote:That chart is eerily correct but also extremely vague as to fit everything in its compartments

Well I think it's vague because it's taking the general elements of every Bioware game.

As much as I love BIOWARE, I think that chart is dead on.

Tawmis wrote:

AndreaDraco wrote:That chart is eerily correct but also extremely vague as to fit everything in its compartments

Well I think it's vague because it's taking the general elements of every Bioware game.

As much as I love BIOWARE, I think that chart is dead on.

Technically speaking, you could say that chart is accurate for most RPGs in general. If an RPG has a story (and not all do), it'll inevitably fit some category on that chart.

DeadPoolX wrote:

Tawmis wrote:

AndreaDraco wrote:That chart is eerily correct but also extremely vague as to fit everything in its compartments

Well I think it's vague because it's taking the general elements of every Bioware game.
As much as I love BIOWARE, I think that chart is dead on.

Technically speaking, you could say that chart is accurate for most RPGs in general. If an RPG has a story (and not all do), it'll inevitably fit some category on that chart.

Which is fine, but it's like Tell Tale. They follow a formula that works for them. Bioware follows one that works for them. Both seem to be doing fairly well. (Bioware more so, since EA devoured them - well, doing better financially, anyway - I think their touch with the fans has gone out the window).

Tawmis wrote:They follow a formula that works for them... ...I think their touch with the fans has gone out the window

I know you said this in regard to Bioware, but this why I and many others have reservations about TT doing KQ games. Not only have they become formulaic in disregard to their fans (read customers), but not even formulaic to the KQ style.

Tawmis wrote:

DeadPoolX wrote:

Tawmis wrote:

AndreaDraco wrote:That chart is eerily correct but also extremely vague as to fit everything in its compartments

Well I think it's vague because it's taking the general elements of every Bioware game.
As much as I love BIOWARE, I think that chart is dead on.

Technically speaking, you could say that chart is accurate for most RPGs in general. If an RPG has a story (and not all do), it'll inevitably fit some category on that chart.

Which is fine, but it's like Tell Tale. They follow a formula that works for them. Bioware follows one that works for them. Both seem to be doing fairly well. (Bioware more so, since EA devoured them - well, doing better financially, anyway - I think their touch with the fans has gone out the window).

I don't think it has. Players still make unrealistic demands and BioWare still "listens" while taking note of people who actually have something constructive to say.

For instance... people always ask if they can fly and/or use horses and BioWare always tells them "NO."

Last time I looked at the BioWare boards, someone asked if they can have an incestuous relationship in DA2 between Hawke and his sister, Bethany. Other board members attacked the OP so bad that BioWare didn't even have to respond -- the answer was obvious.

DeadPoolX wrote: I don't think it has. Players still make unrealistic demands and BioWare still "listens" while taking note of people who actually have something constructive to say.
For instance... people always ask if they can fly and/or use horses and BioWare always tells them "NO."
Last time I looked at the BioWare boards, someone asked if they can have an incestuous relationship in DA2 between Hawke and his sister, Bethany. Other board members attacked the OP so bad that BioWare didn't even have to respond -- the answer was obvious.

Back in the day of NWN (which I know, you hated!) - Bioware was FAR more involved with their community and supported their community member creations. I don't see that anymore; probably because a lot of it has to do with EA. A complete change in company policy.

Tawmis wrote:

DeadPoolX wrote: I don't think it has. Players still make unrealistic demands and BioWare still "listens" while taking note of people who actually have something constructive to say.
For instance... people always ask if they can fly and/or use horses and BioWare always tells them "NO."
Last time I looked at the BioWare boards, someone asked if they can have an incestuous relationship in DA2 between Hawke and his sister, Bethany. Other board members attacked the OP so bad that BioWare didn't even have to respond -- the answer was obvious.

Back in the day of NWN (which I know, you hated!) - Bioware was FAR more involved with their community and supported their community member creations. I don't see that anymore; probably because a lot of it has to do with EA. A complete change in company policy.

NWN was a PC-only product and as such, an editor was very useful as it allowed members to create tons of modules and items. Once BioWare started developing for consoles, editors had to go away. That's why KotOR, ME and JA (all of which were first made for consoles and later ported to the PC) don't have game editors.

ME2 didn't have an editor because it was developed as both a console and PC game from the start.

DA did have a game editor, but that's because BioWare had originally intended for DA to be a PC-only game, like NWN. DA2, on the other hand, which was intentionally developed for both console and PC at the same time, does NOT have an editor.

It's impossible for players to create anything without access to a game editor.

Moreover, I don't really think they could interact with the community better than now.

Sure, they rightfully bash the occasional troll who pops up just to shout "Your game sucks!" but they're otherwise very helpful and they don't hesitate to answer the fans' most intricate lore questions about their franchises. When marketing reasons don't prevent them, they're also very open to discuss the various features of a game, from the GUI to the story, from the companions to the skill tree.

I visit the BioWare Social Site every day, and very often, especially when a game's release grows near, and I've nothing to complaing about the developers: if you're polite to them, they can be really great guys.

DeadPoolX wrote: It's impossible for players to create anything without access to a game editor.

I think the financial success of Red vs Blue would HIGHLY disagree with your statement.

Tawmis wrote:

DeadPoolX wrote: It's impossible for players to create anything without access to a game editor.

I think the financial success of Red vs Blue would HIGHLY disagree with your statement.

Actually, it doesn't, although for different reasons entirely.

The HALO games have always had a multiplayer component. In fact, some people say multiplayer is the best part of that series.

NWN was the last BioWare game to have full multiplayer capabilities. None of BioWare's other titles had multiplayer -- not even so much as LAN. From KotOR to DA2, all of them have been single player.

NWN was also the only BioWare game to have a very user-friendly editor. Aside from DA (which had an exceptionally complex and difficult to use editor), no BioWare game as had an editor.

So let's look at the data: NWN has both multiplayer capabilities and an editor that was easy enough for almost anyone to use. NWN also had tons of community creations, all of which greatly extended NWN's lifespan. NWN was also a PC-only game, with no consideration given to consoles at all (meaning all efforts were concentrated on one platform).

So go ahead and tell me how you could've made Red vs Blue with only a single player mode and no editor at all. Somehow I doubt the NPCs would cooperate.

DeadPoolX wrote:

Tawmis wrote:

DeadPoolX wrote: It's impossible for players to create anything without access to a game editor.

I think the financial success of Red vs Blue would HIGHLY disagree with your statement.

Actually, it doesn't, although for different reasons entirely.

The HALO games have always had a multiplayer component. In fact, some people say multiplayer is the best part of that series.

NWN was the last BioWare game to have full multiplayer capabilities. None of BioWare's other titles had multiplayer -- not even so much as LAN. From KotOR to DA2, all of them have been single player.

NWN was also the only BioWare game to have a very user-friendly editor. Aside from DA (which had an exceptionally complex and difficult to use editor), no BioWare game as had an editor.

So let's look at the data: NWN has both multiplayer capabilities and an editor that was easy enough for almost anyone to use. NWN also had tons of community creations, all of which greatly extended NWN's lifespan. NWN was also a PC-only game, with no consideration given to consoles at all (meaning all efforts were concentrated on one platform).

So go ahead and tell me how you could've made Red vs Blue with only a single player mode and no editor at all. Somehow I doubt the NPCs would cooperate.

But HALO has no editor - and the games used for Red vs Blue were all CONSOLE versions of HALO. (There isn't even a Halo 3 out yet for PC, I don't think?) So you were saying that it took an editor (like NWN and Dragon Age) because they were PC Games. Where as HALO (in this case) was neither PC nor had an editor. (You had said: "It's impossible for players to create anything without access to a game editor.")

DeadPoolX wrote: So go ahead and tell me how you could've made Red vs Blue with only a single player mode and no editor at all. Somehow I doubt the NPCs would cooperate.

Trust me, sometimes the NPCs don't behave even with an editor (especially if you forgot to adjust fractions accordingly)...

Filming NeN Goes Chaotic!

Tawmis wrote:

DeadPoolX wrote:

Tawmis wrote:

DeadPoolX wrote: It's impossible for players to create anything without access to a game editor.

I think the financial success of Red vs Blue would HIGHLY disagree with your statement.

Actually, it doesn't, although for different reasons entirely.

The HALO games have always had a multiplayer component. In fact, some people say multiplayer is the best part of that series.

NWN was the last BioWare game to have full multiplayer capabilities. None of BioWare's other titles had multiplayer -- not even so much as LAN. From KotOR to DA2, all of them have been single player.

NWN was also the only BioWare game to have a very user-friendly editor. Aside from DA (which had an exceptionally complex and difficult to use editor), no BioWare game as had an editor.

So let's look at the data: NWN has both multiplayer capabilities and an editor that was easy enough for almost anyone to use. NWN also had tons of community creations, all of which greatly extended NWN's lifespan. NWN was also a PC-only game, with no consideration given to consoles at all (meaning all efforts were concentrated on one platform).

So go ahead and tell me how you could've made Red vs Blue with only a single player mode and no editor at all. Somehow I doubt the NPCs would cooperate.

But HALO has no editor - and the games used for Red vs Blue were all CONSOLE versions of HALO. (There isn't even a Halo 3 out yet for PC, I don't think?) So you were saying that it took an editor (like NWN and Dragon Age) because they were PC Games. Where as HALO (in this case) was neither PC nor had an editor.

When I made that statement ("It's impossible for players to create anything without access to a game editor") I was speaking of single player games, such as BioWare's products. Since we're talking about BioWare games, I didn't think we'd bring non-BioWare titles into the discussion.

HALO didn't have an editor, but it DID have multiplayer. That's how Red vs Blue was made.

NWN was the last BioWare game to have both multiplayer and an editor; only DA has had an editor and aside from being nearly impossible to use, there was no multiplayer component anyway.

My point is that the height BioWare's community creativity was with NWN because of the tools it gave gamers. Even one of those -- multiplayer or an editor -- could work, but when given both, the community has a lot to work with.

Most BioWare games give neither, so what are fans supposed to do to show their creativity? Suggest new game ideas?